Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? Still, a city the size of Jerusalem needed a dump. And as far as Rabbi Kimhi goes, note that even he stated the alleged dump of Gehenna became an analogy for the judgment of the wicked, which demonstrates that even the first writer to make this connection saw it to be an analogy for the place that the wicked will be judged. If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. eitchen midden, kitchen midden, midden - (archeology) a mound of domestic refuse containing shells and animal bones marking the site of a prehistoric settlement. You simply over-reading certain passages. "The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward.". Where are you getting this? [.] Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. About the same time, G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation: The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley,has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimhi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE. But that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the ages. I've always thought that this was an established fact. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. And Christ spoke (e.g. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. It is amazing how many things we take as "established fact" that simply are not true. Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. Lambs? The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. Rather, god gives the gift of immortality to the saved only per apostle Paul. This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. Why is there this belief that there is no redemption? Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. Click the card to flip . Jude is not using Sodom and Gommorah as examples of those who WILL be punished, the "suffering of eternal fire" in that verse is in the PRESENT TENSE. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. valleys of the sons of Hinnom. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. Todd, capital punishment also qualifies as eternal punishment. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. Perhaps waste products from the lambs were thrown there or pethaps some lambs were slain outside the city walls, but I had never heard this. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. Seems a little disproportionate to me. Sodom and Gommorah were famous cities, and distinct in their time. 24 And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind., "If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation ". No one. He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. Specifically, Bailey states: A longer one, written by Sinclair Ferguson: Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. Words can indeed mean different things at different times, with different context and different people. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". Your email address will not be published. It is clear: Gehenna is hell, not a trash dump. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. "What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one.". [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.". You are confusing the matters under discussion at the time whith what others wrote at other times. A Christian in error is still a Christian. The fire never went out. I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. Neither says anything about eternal punishment being only temporary. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! Gehenna, more commonly known as the Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the Son of Hinnom or Valley of the Children, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna - garbage dump) fire.29) And if thy right eye . And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. Same with "aionian life". We seem to just read right past those verses. (66:5) If these bodies in Gehenna are meant to typify being in "hell" why would anyone want to go look at them? Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? You are right about the two Gregory's too. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. Two different thoughts on the Matthew verse. Even though the word "Gehenna" comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as "garbage dump" or "valley of waste disposal" or "burning garbage" could not be an accurate translations, because that's not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. He is not being literal here", "He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man.". What church are you talking about? Gender matters: women and religion, 1960-2000, Barbara Brown Zikmund. Matthew 25) of the "blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and of the "cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.". 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. Are you referring to Origen? Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. "Are you referring to Origen? There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as hell, writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. People also ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". Click the card to flip I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. You will forgive me that I will not go and read through all the parables but if I have immediately three springing to mind that teach a final, unchangeable judgement than I don't need to have dozens others agree with that or read anything into them. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. God is much more forgiving than that. to fully consume all things dumped there. In order to be successful, corporate marketing departments prepare for these busy-seasons long in, From Black Friday to Good Friday: Easter Ad Campaigns, Russell Moore, Tyler Zach, and the Gospel For Enneagram, Rick Warren: His Stainglass Window and His Female Pastors, To Jackie Hill Perry: God Wants Christians Straight, The myth of the rope around the high priests ankle, The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, These Preachers Aint Loyal: Why Jamal Harrison Bryant is Symptomatic of a Deeper Problem. PDF. Rome? Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. >>And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentators logic, but does not accept it. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. Did Isaiah lie? And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. I don't and hence I will make this a short one. Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. In fact, near as anyone can tell, the earliest mention we have of this theory comes a Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. God is not a torturer. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. Some people use this historical tidbit to make a point either to paint a picture how foul, vivid and terrible hell would be, or alternately to suggest that there is no eternal hell, and the references Jesus makes to the fires of hell and torment was simply a reference to this burning trash pile. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. She offers the following highly imaginative description of this burning refuse heap, which serves as a nice, detailed amalgamation of all the descriptions Ive heard of it over the years. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. Rome? PS. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. For more details, see copyright information. It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. The flies laid eggs on the surface of the dump. He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. [Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. Check out Matt 25:46. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. The references to fire in Is 31.9 and Is 33.14 envisioned Yahweh's power as bringing vengeance on Israel's oppressors (Is 33.10 - 12) rather than a fire . In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. Now I know why I never found any. Mk. Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? It is retributive and vindictive. The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. oh my. One is that the age-during is modified by what it refers to. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. In the context, it's a "causal" from (could even be translated as "by" as this Greek preposition is translated elsewhere in the NT) not a "spacial" from see 2 Thes. But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? Those who WOULD. (v.23). But that doesn't meant that only the "devil gets saved in the end" was condemned. It might have been just as well to not press it. No council ever did that! All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. What church are you talking about? I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. Neovia group's primary competitors include Hi-Pro Feeds, NUTRI Feeds, Purina Animal Nutrition LLC and 8 more. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation as soon as it came on the scene? Mark 9:45. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. Councils made positive definition of faith (e.g. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. Thats it. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". But the old Jerusalem had a "dung gate", where the trash was taken out of the city. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. Where is the record of an uproar over them? It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . Of perpetual judgment ( see Isa people that lived there in 16:55 a burning. 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